We have in the works a whole different page for these questions and concerns, but for now we will ask them here and when the forum gets up and running we will move them there. BECAUSE these two items were not intentionally set up together. Actually, the Gospel in Black and White series was born almost a year ago with some staff conversations. Then six months ago, I started to ask folks to guest preach - Pastor Chip, Bishop Todd and Rev. King. They all wanted not just to pulpit swap but to worship together. THEN, 3 months ago Pastor Chip asked me about considering merging our congregations. So - here we are today not by our plan. Of course the question we are asking in this exploration - Is this God’s planning? Is this God’s leading?
So - please ask your questions here. In time we will post the FAQ’s that have already been distributed and add to it the questions and answers from the Exploration Team. So ask away - as we seek together God’s leading.
#1 by h on March 2nd, 2009 - 6:56 pm
Early in this process I went to Winton Hills website, now I can’t find it. Has it been taken down? I wanted to read the full mission statement again.
#2 by dsmith on March 3rd, 2009 - 10:17 pm
I don’t know. I’ll ask.
#3 by dsmith on March 6th, 2009 - 1:13 pm
Pastor Chip informs me that Winton has never had a web site - just the basic information at the presbytery site http://www.presbyteryofcincinnati.org/ or at the denomination site - http://www.pcusa.org.
#4 by Bill Watson on March 8th, 2009 - 5:22 pm
So far not to many entries. Why is that? Is everyone on board with the process? No fears? No cultural concerns? I had one today from the 10:45 service (March 8th). Chip alluded to it in his first sermon, and followed up today. The question: What do you want to be called? Seems innocent enough. And I suppose we should respect how folks want to be addressed, but I think this is a bit different. After all, his given name most likely did not include the name Pastor. He told us some in his congregation are offended when he is called Chip, not Pastor Chip. Whereas at CHPC, at least from my remembrance, which does fail me more these years, we don’t as a practice refer to our pastors as “Pastor” fill in the blank. I must admit, perhaps a failing on my part, it distracted me for most of the rest of the message. For me, pastor is a gift, not just a title. As I’ve told my mom, she is one of the most gifted pastors I’ve seen, yet she never graduated from college, let alone seminary. Perhaps I’m a bit sensitive with this, but in my time serving at a predominantly African American church, the gifts were often treated as titles, and the way to a place of importance was to be called Pastor, Apostle, Evangelist … you get the drift. I’m not sure why this is an issue, but it is. I don’t recall any of the Apostles referring to each other as Apostle Peter, Apostle Paul (some questioned this in his time). Paul referred to Timothy as … Timothy! Though he was by all accounts a pastor or bishop. Titles seem to have the effect of separating us, putting on us different levels; yet Jesus, nearing the end, told the disciples he no longer referred to them as servants, but friends. Why then must we have a placeholder title when speaking with other Jesus followers?
#5 by Allen & Ann Rainey on March 8th, 2009 - 7:06 pm
That’s okay…CHPC Has a great web site. (-:}
#6 by Robynn Warner on March 21st, 2009 - 12:11 pm
My thoughts on the subject Bill brought up about titles:
Matthew 23:6-12 They(Pharisees & Scribes) take pleasure in and love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and to be greeted with honor in the marketplaces and to have people call them rabbi But you are not to be called rabbi (teacher), for you have one Teacher and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone (in the church) on earth father for you have one Father, Who is in heaven. And you must not be called masters (leaders), for you have one Master (Leader) the Christ. He who is greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself (with haughtiness and empty pride) shall be humbled (brought low), and whoever humbles himself (whoever has a modest opinion of himself and behaves accordingly) shall be raised to honor.(Amplified Translation)
This is a passage I well-learned in my early years in the Church of Christ. One of the practices in that denomination is to call each other brothers and sisters, even the hired minister. (A challenge for news reporters who invariably put the title of Reverend in front of the minister’s name.) Even when my family integrated the local Black congregation in Madisonville where we lived, everyone was called, especially by the youth, brother and sister. So it was brother Bell or sister Peyton, regardless of member or paid position. Coming to CHPC was a challange for me on many levels. However, I have gotten by for 30 years without calling anyone Reverend or Pastor or Father. It has always been Ron or Alice or Pat or Drew. I do not wish to offend anyone, but if I can’t call Chip Hall, Chip, then I don’t know what I can call him. I could call him brother Hall, but even that would be kind of odd since I don’t use that term at CHPC when speaking to or off anyone else. Can anyone help me understand how I can be faithful to these words of Jesus and not offend?
#7 by Ted Salt on April 20th, 2009 - 8:08 am
After yesterday’s meeting i was left confused. I want to thank and bless the exploration committee for their work, but i was disappointed and confused that my questions were not answered. I do not know how we could be considering a merger all of this time if no one could tell me what a merger does that a partnership in ministry does not do.
It seems to me that both churches are not on the same page and it would seem to me that it would be beneficial to get them on the same page as soon as possible. Apparently Winton Hills has not clearly expressed what they need and why they need it. It would seem to me to be helpful to go to Winton Hills and ask them to be very specific in what it is that they really need. If they need a merger — why do they need a merger and what does a merger do that partnership in ministry just cannot do. If they cannot give 3 or 4 very clear reasons why a merger is more beneficial than a partnership in ministry, then it is time for both churches to remove that option from the discussion. If they need financial help, we need to make it clear that CHPC is in no position to provide financial assistance. We have our own financial issues.
I just feel that the process is wondering around without being specific. My intuition says to me that what Winton Hills really needs is financial support. Maybe i am wrong, but it is time to determine whether that is really true. I would think it would help get to the bottom line if the financial questions were pursued ASAP.
I voted no yesterday because i feel that Winton Hills really wants a merger, but they have given no reasons why a merger is necessary. I feel the process is wondering around aimlessly and is not serving either congregation well. I am willing to listen and hope that we can get some answers soon. But it is time for Winton Hills to say why they need a merger and what a merger does that partnership in ministry just cannot do! Saying we need a “spouse not a partner” just does not do it for me. They need to be more specific.
#8 by Lynn Carlin on April 24th, 2009 - 8:46 am
We are not considering a merger yet precisely for the reasons Ted detailed so well. Part of the CHPC exploration will involve finding the answers to your questions.
As I have read about church merger, I find models involving shared staff alone, shared buildings alone, shared programs with or without shared buildings and staff, and what I would call a full merger. A full merger involves a formal process of incorporating the staff, congregations, ministries, and leadership of two different churches into one new church. Some staff, programs, and leaders may continue to function in the new church. Others may not. Finding the model, if any, that is optimal for us would be part of the exploration process.
For WHCC, the advantages of full merger vs. some other partnership would be expansion of ministry capability, preservation of some decision-making authority through a combined session, and preservation of some congregational identity. The WHCC identity would not be preserved and ministry continuation would not be assured if members of WHCC joined CHPC as individuals.
Mergers have been uncommon and abhorred by every denomination until recently. There is not a lot of information, set rules or requirements are few, and guidance is scanty as to how to navigate exploration and merger (if it comes to that). Only recently have denominations and other church resource organizations begun studying questions surrounding merger with any depth. Drew and I attended a good webinar from the Alban Institute on Wednesday. However, every church is different, so every proposal for a joint partnership of any kind will have unique elements. In our case, there is too much research and discussion ahead to wait until we can negotiate and define the kind of partnership CHPC would prefer with WHCC before seeking a blessing to explore from our congregation.
The rationale behind requiring a blessing from both WHCC and CHPC is to keep everyone informed about the exploration process, give the final say to the two congregations, and to help get them and their leaders on the same page. Ted is correct that CHPC’s congregation is not on the same page as WHCC. Why waste the time and energy of exploring if we can say now that we are so far apart that a meeting of the minds and hearts may not occur? The survey helped identify assumptions and differences. The questions and concerns raised via the survey helped the pastors and sessions of both churches to see that CHPC could not immediately commit to explore a full merger. On this basis, CHPC’s session reframed WHCC’s proposal to CHPC as “Can we commit to explore some kind of joint ministry that has yet to be defined?”
CHPC has voted its interest in exploring joint partnership, but not necessarily a full merger, at this point. That changes the question put to CHPC from WHCC. WHCC’s session will be meeting to assess where the heart of WHCC is at this time and if there is a desire to continue in this process on their end.
If WHCC vote to discontinue formal exploration with CHPC, that doesn’t mean that God has changed His call on their lives for ministry in Winton Hills. It just means that WHCC will continue looking for the right partner. Likewise CHPC’s vision remains the same. The difference will be that the churches have renewed and strengthen their connections with each other. Individuals and programs from CHPC may choose to become involved with WHCC’s ministry who had not been aware of this option.
#9 by Ted Salt on April 24th, 2009 - 3:44 pm
Winton Hills has been trying to merge with some other church for a while now. Can you tell us why they are seeking a merger? What is it that Winton Hills needs in a merger? Why was merger the first suggestion from Pastor Hall to Drew? I am trying to understand what it is that Winton Hills is looking for and why only a merger will meet that need.
Ted Salt
#10 by dsmith on April 26th, 2009 - 4:35 pm
They recognize that the ministry as they have been operating is no longer sustainable nor desired. They have been receiving resources from Presbytery and other churches in various ways through the years. Being a church right next to the largest public housing community in the city poses significant constraints. So the question became how do we continue this ministry in an area with such a concentration of poverty - it’s around 5000 people - approx. 1500 families with an average household income of less than $10,000. The relationships with other churches and the Presbytery that had maintained the church for the past 40 years are not going to be working for much longer for a variety of reasons. Also, the mission church model has been found lacking in creating sustainable ministries. So WH has come to the conclusion of seeking a merger to continue the ministry of the church in the Winton Terrace community. It certainly does seem obvious that such a large concentration of poverty would intersect with the church of Jesus Christ if Jesus indeed did come “to bring good news to the poor.” The detailed needs - financial, ministry space, and worship space - all are not clear at this time and through the detailed exploration we will work through the possibilities.
In addition, this process may reveal that a merger isn’t the only way to meet that need. Other options will be explored.
#11 by Dottie & Scott Engle on May 10th, 2009 - 5:33 pm
Okay, if we are supposed to follow Jesus into a broken, hurting world, then it looks like He is making it very convenient for us.
- WHCC approached us first, not the other way around. So we don’t have to worry about looking like we just want to take over.
- WHCC is right there in Winton Terrace, where we have a high concentration of people in public housing.
- Winton Terrace is very close to CHPC and many members; some of us drive past it every day.
- There are now successful models for how to improve the outcomes of children in poverty. Please refer to Harlem Children’s Zone, in particular look at Baby College. http://www.hcz.org. Or the book “Whatever It Takes” by Paul Tough.
- As we have heard from our coroner Dr. Owens, the best and easiest way to fight crime is to teach children to read. As researchers (and Grandma) tell us, a child’s first and most influential teacher is the parent. Brain development from 0 – 3 sets patterns in place that persist into adulthood and affect learning at all grade levels.
- Both churches already have established relationships with the Winton Place Academy, the neighborhood elementary school. I bet that the school would work with us in the development of programs for parents of babies 0 – 3; then they could get the kids in pre-school and carry on from there.
Are these all coincidences that we should just brush aside? Is God is trying to hand us a useful ministry on a platter? It seems clear that some sort of partnership with WHCC would be needed. Maybe merger would make such a ministry better?
Is Pastor Chip reading the blog comments, too?